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Topic: The Terry Schiavo Case
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Cacophonous
Sarge
Member # 19
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posted 03-22-2005 10:47 PM
    
Hooking up someone brain dead to life support is the most selfish, cruel thing anyone could do. It's keeping a corpse alive until their organs finally collapse out of exhaustion and just a horrifying thing watch.Yes, and it wastes moneys and resources. I could not believe congress and the president getting involved. Like they don't have anything better to do? Idiots! Here we have a Republican government which traditionally would favor a weaker central govt in favor of state's rights--in theory anyway--getting involved not only in state problems, but the lives of the individuals themselves. The State of Florida already had its own legal process play out and ultimately made the decisions that she should be left to die. The feds should have no right, and had no right until two days ago, to step in and try to change that. -------------------- ...
Posts: 5571 | From: Yes | Registered: Jun 1999 | IP: Logged
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Mad Max
Sarge
Member # 622
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posted 03-23-2005 01:11 AM
I think it's a crying shame. They should let her go.If this whole thing serves one thing then it's to make damned sure my house is in order (it isn't yet). If I end up in the same state as her, and I don't mean Florida, then flick that switch and move on. I don't recall which forum I posted this on but when you think about it, death is a more natural state for humans to be in than life. If we believe what we are told and that the the universe is some 14 billion years old (or whatever the commonly held belief is) then that means that, to date, I have spent 13,999,999,966 years being dead and 34 years being alive. I don't have any memories from when I was dead but that doesn't mean it was all that bad. I go back and forth on what my beliefs are. I'm not quite old enough yet to have started fearing death, maybe I never will, but my current thought is that it's gonna be something new. It could be eternal life with 40 virgins. It could be NOTHING. It could be back to square one and do the whole thing again (I wonder how many times I have typed this message before in previous lives?). It could be that life after death consists of having one's testicles slowly flattened with a rubber mallet. I really don't know. I know that I don't want to have a long, painful, agonizing death but that doesn't mean that I am not kinda looking forward to finding out what is behind door number 3. But back to Terry. I hope that where she is right now is not awful. According to what I have read, "People in such a condition cannot think, speak or respond to commands and are not aware of their surroundings.". I really hope that she is unaware of what is going on. It would be terrible to be in that state and have everyone think that you are brain dead when you are actually fully aware of what is going on but unable to show any indication that the lights actually are on, it's just that the drapes are closed.  [ 03-23-2005: Message edited by: Mad Max ] -------------------- Miss you guys.
Posts: 1487 | From: | Registered: Aug 1999 | IP: Logged
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Snag
Sarge
Member # 992
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posted 03-23-2005 01:48 AM
Well Cac...according to the "family" that loves her so much she is not on life support...she simply has a feeding tube.  My problem with it is that it is selfish. The religious folks I think do not have an argument. I mean, she was un-naturally saved from a natural death and has since suffered the consequences of science interfering with the course of life. If they think that is still their daughter, I think they better get a grasp on what makes a person a person. What makes each of us...us?
Well, Terri is longer there. The person that was Terri is dead, all that remains is a shell. Having said that, I think the parents are robbing her any iota of dignity. If she lives to be 50 years old, what is here eulogy going to read? How about this to put things into perspective. "Terri was a __________ person who always made people smile. She graduated from ________ and subsequently went to college with the apirations of becoming _________. She was then married for a handful of years, which saw her suffer a heart atack and suffer brain damage. She has laid in bed every day ever since, unable to responde to anyone that loves her for over half of her life..." I mean, who the flying fuck are her parents fighting to keep her alive for? And the husband...fuck, the guy will never get closure of having lost his wife and move on. The family is being incredibly selfish. [ 03-23-2005: Message edited by: Snag ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged
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Cacophonous
Sarge
Member # 19
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posted 03-23-2005 09:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Acid:
Its how the world is today. Individuals think that if the state government doesn't do what they want, just run up to the federal government. Like asking your mom for something,then asking your dad.I think they should let her go though.
You voted for this administration, which interfered with the state government.
-------------------- ...
Posts: 5571 | From: Yes | Registered: Jun 1999 | IP: Logged
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Flux
Sarge
Member # 3052
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posted 03-23-2005 01:15 PM
They should let her die. The parents are morons. What amuses me is that even though these polls show that over 70% of people think they should let her go, the media is all pro-life and quoting the lifers left and right. Its as if the media is trying to spin something they can't even lift.Snag - sounds like you missed the point of burble's post. burble - I've got CNN on the phone now. Any comment? -------------------- 
Posts: 794 | From: | Registered: Jan 2004 | IP: Logged
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Wintermute
Sarge
Member # 1307
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posted 03-23-2005 08:16 PM
Who cares if it gets press. It's so much better than the Scott Peterson crap that has been polluting the airwaves for so long. At least this promps us to ask important questions about the nature of identity and the sanctity of human life.As for the politics. It may be true that the republicans were trying to benefit politically, but it's not like 'life' isn't a central part of the conservative platform. Plus, it seemed like Senator DeLay really cared. I'm sure most of them did. At least they tried. Congress would probably have not even gotten involved had there not been so many Americans who cared. Some of the polls I saw were pretty much down the middle on whether she should be allowed to live or not. Apparently, a lot of people intuitively know there is something wrong with 'pulling the plug' on someone under those circumstances, moreover actually dehydrating them to death. I think most people are unaware that this barbary goes on all the time in all the states. If she had a will, then maybe. In this case in addition to there being no such statements, there are several things that make one question Michael Schiavo's motivation. Hasn't her husband moved on? I thought he went and had a few children with some other woman. If he's been able to move on to that extent, why not just let the woman's parents who love her and want to take care of her be her guardians. Maybe it's the malpractice awards he'll get if she dies as HIS guardian. If he really wanted to obey his wife's wishes wouldn't she have been let to die by now? Hasn't been 10 or 15 years or something. Makes you wonder what truly motivates him. Teri's parents and something like 30 doctors testified that Terri was responsive. Some said she was like a 2 or 3 years old child. It's one thing to euthanize a person who is actually brain dead, and cannot breath or maintain a heart beat on their own, but to pull the feeding tube of a person who as far as major life functions go is only dependent on someone feeding them is another thing. It's barbaric. If it is okay to do this, then it should be okay for parents or guardians of severely retarded people to stop feeding them. It wouldn't be hard to justify letting children die in the same way. Fundamentally, other than the promise of maturing, what is the difference between a 2 year child and an adult who is stuck at a 2 year old's mentality? I also have a problem with the fact that we treat criminals to better deaths than we do this woman. They at least get to be put to sleep, and then poisoned. It's painless and it's fast. I guess we can't do the same for Terri Schiavo because then it would be 'killing her'. It's funny if you think about it. Let's let her die out of mercy, but let's do it by dehydrating her to death. Yeah.. she's really being dignified now. [ 03-23-2005: Message edited by: Wintermute ] -------------------- Verdammt durch das Fleisch. Gerettet durch das Blut.
Posts: 519 | From: Qwghlm | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged
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J0SH
Sarge
Member # 103
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posted 03-24-2005 09:13 AM
She is being kept alive due to the selfishness of her parents. They need to let go and let her move on. I also heard she told her husband she did not want to be on life support should something bad happen. I do agree that she shouldn't be starved to death. It should be quick and painless.I would like to be put on life support but for no more than a year, personally. -------------------- I am.
Posts: 1591 | From: buffalo new york | Registered: Jun 1999 | IP: Logged
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Mad Max
Sarge
Member # 622
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posted 03-24-2005 10:15 AM
Three of us had this discussion last night over a few pops and a game of Scrabble. All of us agreed that if we were in the same situation then we would NOT want to be kept alive, especially not for 15 years. Imagine if inside you are a fully aware person but trapped in a body that cannot communicate in any way. How frustrating would that be for 15 years? The key problem here as far as I can tell is we don't know what HER wishes are, we've only got other people telling us what she wants. I think it's sad that after all this time she is allowed to starve to death (which I don't think constitutes euthanisia?). If it has been decided that she should be allowed to die then they should make it as comfortable and swift as possible. -------------------- Miss you guys.
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Wintermute
Sarge
Member # 1307
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posted 03-24-2005 02:42 PM
This woman left no clear legal mandate in the form of a DNR or living will as to how she would have wanted to live or die under these circumstances. Despite this fact and the fact that she is neither suffering from a terminal condition or in an irreversible coma, but is indeed aware and albeit to a small extent, responsive to others, the courts still ultimately chose to allow her husband to let her die.Those to whom it means so very much that they would rather die under these circumstances may place their wishes in a living will. In the absence of such mandate, no intention or will should be inferred upon someone who is incapable of communicating this wish. I think the question of life is too big to be left up to the mere word of a second party or in the hands of activist judges for that matter. This is neither euthanasia or assisted suicide. Whatever the reason given for letting her die, it is no less than murder. This woman is cognitively impaired and therefore unable to give informed consent to die. Any words such as 'mercy' and 'dignity' projected onto this act are just empty justifications used to beautify this murder. * This is just the slippery slope that will help justify the 'merciful' killing of other cognitively disabled people, and perhaps eventually even born babies. There are thousands of such people in state custodies who cannot take care of themselves. Why not just 'mercifully' let them die? Afterall, they may not be able to say so, but none of them could possibly want to be that way, right? Plus, I'm sure they'd want to help out with the population problem and all. I'm sure they'd also feel good that the tax money will go to something better like rehabilitation centers for thiefs, rapists, and even murders for whom it will soon be deemed inhumane and illegal to execute for their own crimes of "murder". -------------------- Verdammt durch das Fleisch. Gerettet durch das Blut.
Posts: 519 | From: Qwghlm | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged
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Mad Max
Sarge
Member # 622
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posted 03-24-2005 03:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Wintermute:
This woman left no clear legal mandate in the form of a DNR or living will as to how she would have wanted to live or die under these circumstances. Despite this fact and the fact that she is neither suffering from a terminal condition or in an irreversible coma, but is indeed aware and albeit to a small extent, responsive to others, the courts still ultimately chose to allow her husband to let her die.Those to whom it means so very much that they would rather die under these circumstances may place their wishes in a living will. In the absence of such mandate, no intention or will should be inferred upon someone who is incapable of communicating this wish. I think the question of life is too big to be left up to the mere word of a second party or in the hands of activist judges for that matter. This is neither euthanasia or assisted suicide. Whatever the reason given for letting her die, it is no less than murder. This woman is cognitively impaired and therefore unable to give informed consent to die. Any words such as 'mercy' and 'dignity' projected onto this act are just empty justifications used to beautify this murder. * This is just the slippery slope that will help justify the 'merciful' killing of other cognitively disabled people, and perhaps eventually even born babies. There are thousands of such people in state custodies who cannot take care of themselves. Why not just 'mercifully' let them die? Afterall, they may not be able to say so, but none of them could possibly want to be that way, right? Plus, I'm sure they'd want to help out with the population problem and all. I'm sure they'd also feel good that the tax money will go to something better like rehabilitation centers for thiefs, rapists, and even murders for whom it will soon be deemed inhumane and illegal to execute for their own crimes of "murder".
I can't believe you are calling this murder and accusing those people who think she should be allowed to die of "beautifying this murder".There are two choices here:
1. she wants to die - in which case keeping her alive is torture. 2. she wants to live - in which case letting her die is, to use your words, murder.
So as long as you are telling me that I am supporting murder, I will say that you are supporting torture and since neither of us knows exactly what Terri wants, neither of us is right.
-------------------- Miss you guys.
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LordVader
Sarge
Member # 30
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posted 03-24-2005 05:01 PM
I could not find any documentation as to how many physicians have examined her, but I heard on the radio (no, I'm not saying this as accurate...just what I heard) she has been seen by over 100 (over a coourse of time, I'm sure), and only 2 questioned the persistent vegetative state. I think the lay-persons understanding of a complex neurological state is what leads to these irrational pleas for her "life" quote:
The vegetative state is a clinical condition of complete unawareness of the self and the environment, accompanied by sleep-wake cycles, with either complete or partial preservation of hypothalmic and brain stem autonomic functions. In addition, patients in a vegetative state show no evidence of sustained, reproducible, purposeful, or voluntary behavioral responses to visual, auditory, tactile, or noxious stimuli; show no evidence of language comprehension or expression; have bowel and bladder incontinence; and have variably preserved cranial-nerve and spinal reflexes. We define persistent vegetative state as a vegetative state present one month after acute traumatic or nontraumatic brain injury, or lasting in least one month in patients with degenerative or metabolic disorders or developmental malformations. The Multi-Society Task for on PVS, Medical Aspects of the Persistent Vegetative State, New England Journal of Medicine, 330:1499-1508, May 26, 1994. A particularly disarming aspect of persons diagnosed with persistent vegetative state is that they have waking and sleeping cycles. When awake, their eyes are often open, they make noises, they appear to track movement, they respond to deep pain, and appear startled by loud noises. Further, because the autonomic nervous system those brain related functions are not affected, they can often breathe (without a respirator) and swallow (saliva). But there is no purposeful, reproducible, interactive, awareness. There is some controversy within the scientific medical literature regarding the characterization and diagnosis of persons in a persistent vegetative state. Highly competent, scientifically based physicians using recognized measures and standards have deduced, within a high degree of medical certainty, that Theresa is in a persistent vegetative state. This evidence is compelling. Terri is a living, breathing human being. When awake, she sometimes groans, makes noises that emulate laughter or crying, and may appear to track movement. But the scientific medical literature and the reports this GAL obtained from highly respected neuro-science researchers indicate that these activities are common and characteristic of persons in a persistent vegetative state. In the month during which the GAL conducted research, interviews and compiled information, he sought to visit with Theresa as often as possible, sometimes daily, and sometimes, more than once each day. During that time, the GAL was not able to independently determine that there were consistent, repetitive, intentional, reproducible interactive and aware activities. When Theresa's mother and father were asked to join the GAL, there was no success in eliciting specific responses. Hours of observed video tape recordings of Theresa offer little objective insight about her awareness and interactive behaviors. There are instances where she appears to respond specifically to her mother. But these are not repetitive or consistent. There were instances during the GAL's visits, when responses seemed possible, but they were not consistent in any way. This having been said, Theresa has a distinct presence about her. Being with Theresa, holding her hand, looking into her eyes and watching how she is lovingly treated by Michael, her parents and family and the clinical staff at hospice is an emotional experience. It would be easy to detach from her if she were comatose, asleep with her eyes closed and made no noises. This is the confusing thing for the lay person about persistent vegetative states. Theresa's neurological tests and CT scans indicate objective measures of the persistent vegetative state. These data indicate that Theresa's cerebral cortex is principally liquid, having shrunken due to the severe anoxic trauma experienced thirteen years ago. The initial oxygen deprivation caused damage that could not be repaired, and the brain tissue in that area continued to devolve. It is noteworthy to recall that from the time of her collapse, and for more than three years, Theresa did receive active physical, occupational, speech and even recreational therapy. There is evidence early in her records of care that she said "no" during physical therapy session. That behavior did not recur and was not further referenced.
Posts: 400 | From: Temecula, CA | Registered: Jun 1999 | IP: Logged
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Wintermute
Sarge
Member # 1307
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posted 03-24-2005 08:36 PM
This guy answers some of the distortions and half truths surrounding the Schiavo case. Link at the bottom.
-------- quote:
March 16, 2005
About Terri Schiavo: Shut UpLet me start by saying that I'm not affiliated with Blogs for Terri or any of the other fine blogs that have done so much work on Terri Schiavo's behalf, and the opinions expressed in this post are my own. I want to make that clear because I'm not sure they would appreciate my lack of decorum. Having said that, let me say this to the people who don't have the facts about Terri Schiavo's condition and history, but still feel compelled to open their mouths and say that they think she should die; please shut up. Sorry, but I'm disgusted with people who shoot their mouths off based on lies, distortions, half-truths and disinformation. I'm not saying that anyone has a responsibility to learn about Terri Schiavo, but if you don't know what you're talking about, then you should just keep your mouth shut. Not only are you not adding anything, you're advocating the slow and painful death of another human being. I'm talking about people who are for the most part well-read, well-informed, and are generally reasonable, intelligent people. They probably read blogs and newspapers every day, scour the Internet to stay current on world events, know more than most people about politics, and usually deal in facts. But for some reason they'll pick up one or two pieces of misinformation about Terri Schiavo's case and decide that she deserves to be killed. They think that just because they "wouldn't want to live like that" (even though they have no idea what "that" is) then Terri Schiavo should starve to death. They like to call her parents "selfish" and say that they "just want to keep Terri alive for themselves", and ask "what kind of life is that?" They make me sick. I've heard otherwise intelligent people say things like: Terri is in a vegetative state. Terri is on life support. Terri's husband doesn't stand to gain financially, because any money he might receive when she dies will probably go toward medical bills. Terri's cerebral cortex was destroyed and replaced by fluid. erri told her husband she would want to die if anything like this happened to her. Terri's husband should be the one to decide if she should be "allowed to die." Terri has had the benefit of the best medical care possible, and hasn't responded to therapy. Anyone who's followed this case (and there are a lot of people out there who know a lot more about this than I do about this) know that these statements are all false. If you don't, here is some background information that addresses each of these points (all emphasis is mine).
The Whole Thing -------------------- Verdammt durch das Fleisch. Gerettet durch das Blut.
Posts: 519 | From: Qwghlm | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged
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Flux
Sarge
Member # 3052
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posted 03-25-2005 01:11 AM
Fuck the media. I'm so jaded on them and their bullshit since the election that I don't give a rat's ass what anyone says in radio, tv, print or, most useless of all, blogs, where everyone cavorts as Larry fucking King.My aunt is friends with a close friend of Mike Schaivo (my aunt lives in St. Petersburg, same county in Florida as the hospice) and she had a good deal to say about the whole thing. 'scuse me if I take this as gospel truth, but I'll believe her over CNN or Fox News any day. Its sickening the way the media is trying to put a pro-life spin on this, because that's what the Conservatives want to do. pah. The parents are full of shit. For the first five years of the couple's marriage, they financially supported the parents. Then when the settlement came in, Mike said he'd give $600K to their charity of choice. They turned him down. Terri has told her husband that if something like this ever happens to let her die (something we've all heard, but its nice to hear it from someone without some kind of political agenda). The parents were absent during the first several years of their daughters' ordeal. Didn't bother to take care of her or visit her. After that period, the dad said Mike should get a life and move on. Two or three years after that, he started dating, and now has a gf with two kids (that are staying at an undisclosed location to keep them out of the media) but has not divorced his wife. He's been trying to take care of her, and this case has been in litigation for at least 5 years. People ask "Why now? Why after 15 years?" Its because the parents used the legal system to prevent something that would've happened a long time ago. Anyone who thinks Mike Shiavo has anything to gain financially are morons. 15 years of this kind of care is going to bleed any policy dry. All we hear are quotes and bytes from the parents, the protestors and Jeb, all who want the same outcome, but we don't hear from the husband, the doctors who made the initial diagnosis or any word from the other side of the issue, and I think that's a shame. Now I hear that the doctor who made the infamous "misdiagnosis" claim is a big wig on some Christian pro-life board. Jesus Christ. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and trust her husband and her doctors that made the first diagnosis and side with them. IMO, spousal consent should override parental consent in issues like this. And yes, they need to let her go in another manner, not this starvation/dehydration stuff. Mute - I like how he answers questions in a case he has no involvement in, with references to nothing but more media spin. I'll just take that with a grain of salt if you don't mind. If you take this post with a grain of salt, that's cool. I don't expect anyone here to believe me, but I just thought I'd pass some of this info along to anyone who might want to hear it. --------------------
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WuzzaDem
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Member # 3184
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posted 03-25-2005 03:24 AM
Originally posted by Flux:
"Mike said he'd give $600K to their charity of choice. They turned him down."You're partially right. The forst time Michael Schiavo wanted to remove Terri's feeding tube, her parents objected. Michael offered to donate the proceeds of the trust to charity, but only if they withdrew their objection to removing the feeding tube. Here's the letter:
http://www.terrisfight.org/downloads/charity.jpg
"Terri has told her husband that if something like this ever happens to let her die (something we've all heard, but its nice to hear it from someone without some kind of political agenda)."
That testimony has only come from Micheal, his brother and his brother's wife. He first mentioned it in 1998, eight years after Terri's collapse. There are at least four affidavits on file from people who testified that he said he "didn't know what Terri wanted" before that. He has also said he want to have Terri cremated and will not allow an autopsy. That's part of the record and ongoing legal battle. "The parents were absent during the first several years of their daughters' ordeal. Didn't bother to take care of her or visit her." Can you back that up, or is that hearsay? I haven't heard that from anyone, and I know this case pretty well. "After that period, the dad said Mike should get a life and move on." That's Michael's testimony. The parents say they told him no such thing. They are Catholics and did not think he should be dating other women while he was still married to their daughter. "Two or three years after that, he started dating, and now has a gf with two kids (that are staying at an undisclosed location to keep them out of the media." That's true. He has been living with another woman and has two children with her. He dated two other women before that. "He's been trying to take care of her, and this case has been in litigation for at least 5 years." In 1993, just after winning over $700,000 in a settlement he said was for Terri's therapy, he ordered any and all therapy halted. The parents have been fighting that in the courts ever since. "People ask "Why now? Why after 15 years?" Its because the parents used the legal system to prevent something that would've happened a long time ago." How would it have happened a long time ago? People who suffer brain injuries often lose the ability to perform simple motor functions, like swallowing, so Terri is fed through a tube. Christopher Reeve needed a tube to breath for a long time. Other than that, Terri has no life support - no respirator, no IV, nothing else. They simply are not feeding her. "Anyone who thinks Mike Shiavo has anything to gain financially are morons. 15 years of this kind of care is going to bleed any policy dry." Michael Schiavo placed Terri on Medicare after placing her in a hospice. In 2003, George Felos, Michael's attorney, said that he had received $385,000 in legal fees to date, and another attorney had received $80,000. No one knows how much is left because his attorneys petitioned the court to have the financial records sealed. "All we hear are quotes and bytes from the parents, the protestors and Jeb, all who want the same outcome, but we don't hear from the husband, the doctors who made the initial diagnosis or any word from the other side of the issue, and I think that's a shame. Now I hear that the doctor who made the infamous "misdiagnosis" claim is a big wig on some Christian pro-life board. Jesus Christ." Terri has *never* had an MRI or PET scan, which are crucial in determining PVS (Persistent Vegatative State). Michael won't allow it. Mute - I like how he answers questions in a case he has no involvement in, with references to nothing but more media spin. If you look at my post, you'll find legal and medical documents referenced. If you need more I can tell you where to find them. I'll just take that with a grain of salt if you don't mind. If you take this post with a grain of salt, that's cool. I don't expect anyone here to believe me, but I just thought I'd pass some of this info along to anyone who might want to hear it.
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Cyborg6
Sarge
Member # 1382
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posted 03-25-2005 09:33 AM
If the husband is done with her (I believe he is tired) and her immediate family wants to take care of her, let them!!! Even if she is Jell-O she means something to them so let them take care of her. Ellen stated that she would want me to pull the plug. I on the other hand would want to live to see if my mind could function and successfully migrate to the area that is still firing. The only sad part is you would most likely not be able to communicate from there, just like Terry? Things to ponder: 1.) How much of our brain do we really use? 2.) Have you even heard that brain functions can migrate during trauma? 3.) Could Terry exist in 20%? I think people need to admit that they do not know enough about this and can not speak for someone who is 80% in heaven and 20% on earth. [ 03-25-2005: Message edited by: Cyborg6 ]
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Flux
Sarge
Member # 3052
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posted 03-25-2005 09:52 PM
WD, am I right in assuming you're the guy who wrote that blog telling everyone to shut up? If so, don't you have anything better to do than refute people on this case? Especially hunting them down on boards they post in? You may be familiar with the case, but I doub't you're a part of it, so whatever you offer is mere opinion. What I offer might be heresay, but I'll take it over your post any day.You might want to read the comments to your little blog. They seem to reference more material than just having (broken) links from terrisfight.org, like research and documentation sites that aren't media-based or biased. [ 03-25-2005: Message edited by: Flux ] --------------------
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WuzzaDem
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Member # 3184
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posted 03-25-2005 10:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Flux:
WD, am I right in assuming you're the guy who wrote that blog telling everyone to shut up? If so, don't you have anything better to do than refute people on this case? Especially hunting them down on boards they post in? You may be familiar with the case, but I doub't you're a part of it, so whatever you offer is mere opinion. What I offer might be heresay, but I'll take it over your post any day.You might want to read the comments to your little blog. They seem to reference more material than just having (broken) links from terrisfight.org, like research and documentation sites that aren't media-based or biased. [ 03-25-2005: Message edited by: Flux ]
The link isn't broken. Cut and paste it into the browser and you'll see the letter.
Doesn't matter where the documents are stored, they are still legal documents from the case. You can find them on Lexis or Findlaw as well. What comment are you talking about, the one where you pitched a fit? You left an IP address.
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Mad Max
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Member # 622
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posted 03-27-2005 07:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Cyborg6:
If the husband is done with her (I believe he is tired) and her immediate family wants to take care of her, let them!!! Even if she is Jell-O she means something to them so let them take care of her. Ellen stated that she would want me to pull the plug. I on the other hand would want to live to see if my mind could function and successfully migrate to the area that is still firing. The only sad part is you would most likely not be able to communicate from there, just like Terry? Things to ponder: 1.) How much of our brain do we really use? 2.) Have you even heard that brain functions can migrate during trauma? 3.) Could Terry exist in 20%? I think people need to admit that they do not know enough about this and can not speak for someone who is 80% in heaven and 20% on earth. [ 03-25-2005: Message edited by: Cyborg6 ]
From some reading I did a while ago (I even posted some links here I think):
1. all of it.
2. yes
3. I don't know, it depends on which 20%. I think that if a person effectively loses 80% of their brain, there is little hope for them. Just my opinion mind you.
Cy, I too thought about the notion of giving Terri over to her parents so they can care for her but I had to rule that out as an option because that reduces the situation to money i.e. who is going to pay for her care. If this was a matter of money then I would say, "Yes, let her be cared for by her parents.". However, if this battle is really over what is best for Terri then no amount of money is going to change my mind. If Michael believes that Terri would prefer to die then surely letting her parents care for her would be going against Terri's wishes? Of course we always return to the same unknown, what does Terri want.
-------------------- Miss you guys.
Posts: 1487 | From: | Registered: Aug 1999 | IP: Logged
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Wintermute
Sarge
Member # 1307
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posted 03-28-2005 01:02 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Max:
If Michael believes that Terri would prefer to die then surely letting her parents care for her would be going against Terri's wishes?
If Michael genuinely cared about his wife's alleged wish to die I seriously doubt he would have waited 8 years to bring it up. 50 neurologists believe that Terri should be reevaluated, and that there is a strong possibility that she was misdiagnosed. New screening can confirm that she is truly in a PVS, yet Michael wouldn't allow it just as he wouldn't allow any therapy in the past that might have helped improve her condition. These among many other facts make his motives totally suspect and place any claims he makes about Terri's wishes in strong doubt.
- -------------------- Verdammt durch das Fleisch. Gerettet durch das Blut.
Posts: 519 | From: Qwghlm | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged
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Flux
Sarge
Member # 3052
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posted 03-28-2005 02:24 PM
www.miami.com
Select Terry Schiavo Case
Read Dr.Wolfson's final reportForty-nine days later, she was transferred again to Bayfront Hospital for additional, aggressive rehabilitation efforts. In September of 1990, she was brought home, but following only three weeks, she was returned to the College Park facility because the “family was overwhelmed by Terry’s care needs.” On 18 June 1990, Michael was formally appointed by the court to serve as Theresa’s legal guardian, because she was adjudicated to be incompetent by law. Michael’s appointment was undisputed by the parties.
The clinical records within the massive case file indicate that Theresa was not responsive to neurological and swallowing tests. She received regular and intense physical, occupational and speech therapies. Theresa’s husband, Michael Schiavo and her mother, Mary Schindler, were virtual partners in their care of and dedication to Theresa. There is no question but that complete trust, mutual caring, explicit love and a common goal of caring for and rehabilitating Theresa, were the shared intentions of Michael Shiavo and the Schindlers.
In late Autumn of 1990, following months of therapy and testing, formal diagnoses of persistent vegetative state with no evidence of improvement, Michael took Theresa to California, where she received an experimental thalamic stimulator implant in her brain. Michael remained in California caring for Theresa during a period of several months and returned to Florida with her in January of 1991. Theresa was transferred to the Mediplex Rehabilitation Center in Brandon, where she received 24 hour skilled care, physical, occupational, speech and recreational therapies.
Despite aggressive therapies, physician and other clinical assessments consistently revealed no functional abilities, only reflexive, rather than cognitive movements, random eye opening, no communication system and little change cognitively or functionally. On 19 July 1991 Theresa was transferred to the Sable Palms skilled care facility. Periodic neurological exams, regular and aggressive physical, occupational and speech therapy continued through 1994. After the malpractice case judgment, evidence of disaffection between the Schindlers and Michael Schiavo openly emerged for the first time. The Schindlers petitioned the court to remove Michael as Guardian. They made allegations that he was not caring for Theresa, and that his behavior was disruptive to Theresa’s treatment and condition.
Proceedings concluded that there was no basis for the removal of Michael as Guardian Further, it was determined that he had been very aggressive and attentive in his care of Theresa. His demanding concern for her well being and meticulous care by the nursing home earned him the characterization by the administrator as “a nursing home administrator’s nightmare”. It is notable that through more than thirteen years after Theresa’s collapse, she has never had a bedsore. --------------------
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Wintermute
Sarge
Member # 1307
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posted 03-28-2005 09:37 PM
quote:
Mute - I like how he answers questions in a case he has no involvement in, with references to nothing but more media spin.
I suppose I could google and cut/paste whatever I find that supports my argument, and try to cast doubt on others' sources, but what could that accomplish? Regardless of what we laymen feel about her condition, medical professionals who do not have a political agenda or financial stake in this case have thrown doubt on her diagnosis. Also, it seems rather arbitrary on the part of Michael Schiavo's physicians/lawyers that every response Terri has to any outside stimuli is characterized as a product of her autonomic system. I support non-voluntary euthanasia when it is clear that the person is little more than a corpse being kept 'alive' on life support. Terri may be severely mentally impaired, and most likely permanently so, but there is no evidence that she is in any mental pain or physical pain outside of her bedsores. There's no evidence of her feeling trapped. She actually seems pretty happy at times. She is certainly not just a slab of meat being kept alive by machines. Why doesn't Michael just allow the reevaluation? Hmm.
- There are many who seem almost anxious to see her die. Some seem more concerned with her getting dead than even the barbaric way in which she is dying. Some don't even care about the the question of whether she is truly in a PVS and legally qualifies for non-voluntary euthanasia. For some reason the dissenting medical opinions just don't matter. If she were found not to qualify for being in a PVS, there would still be those who believe she should die. How arrogant it is to presume we should take it upon ourselves to decide whether or not someone who is at least borderline if not obviously cognitive on some level should live or die. If she were in measurable pain, it might be another story, but she's not. -------------------- Verdammt durch das Fleisch. Gerettet durch das Blut.
Posts: 519 | From: Qwghlm | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged
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Mad Max
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Member # 622
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posted 03-29-2005 12:24 PM
Why doesn't Michael just allow the reevaluation? HmmOh you mean another evaluation? How many people have to examine her? Has she not already been examined by something like 100 physicians?============================================= There are many who seem almost anxious to see her die. Some seem more concerned with her getting dead than even the barbaric way in which she is dying. If she were in measurable pain, it might be another story, but she's not. You say she is not in any measurable pain yet her death is barbaric - can she feel pain or not Mute? Which is it to be? [ 03-29-2005: Message edited by: Mad Max ] -------------------- Miss you guys.
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