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And by the way, like I said, if we are selling them at the prices I mentioned, I have no problem with our government selling them to the US

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Mute, our pharmaceuticals are subsidized by the government, why did you think they were so cheap compared to yours?. In which case they are not under the domain of NAFTA. Free Trade agreements do not apply in this case.

Another way of looking at it is, your country has violated NAFTA multiple times. Most notably over softwood lumber, and when we've taken the matter up in court, we have repeatedly been shown to be in the right. And that it was you who violated the agreement. I'm sorry, but snag is right. You want our drugs, you gotta pay full market prices for them.

[ 10-19-2004: Message edited by: AcidWarp ]

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

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You want our drugs, you gotta pay for them.

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Originally posted by AcidWarp:
[QB]Mute, our pharmaceuticals are subsidized by the government, why did you think they were so cheap compared to yours?. In which case they are not under the domain of NAFTA. Free Trade agreements do not apply in this case...

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I didn't say that I thought the vaccines were cheap or that they fell under NAFTA. When I mentioned NAFTA, it was in reference to the other 'things' that Snag brought up.

I'll be honest. When it comes to breaking NAFTA, I couldn't care less. NAFTA is antidemocratic. It puts the power we have over our own trade system into the hands of an unaccountable group of foreigners who apparently could give a shit about the environment and local economies that are threatened by cheap imported goods.

I don't believe Canada should be given special treatments through NAFTA. I think that if we want to slap massive duties on your lumber in order to make it easier for our lumber industry to compete, then we should do it, and per a true free trade system, you would be free to take it or leave it.

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I'm not saying that I like NAFTA, but we're both bound by it.

[ 10-19-2004: Message edited by: AcidWarp ]

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

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My interjections come in that the US government (NOT THE PEOPLE) have a very poor sense of policy, diplomacy and mutual relationships. The US government (more specificall the GWB administration) is very self-serving and does not give a damn about other countries interests. If this was the case, when the BSE cow in the US was discovered, he woulda said "oh shit, we got a problem that surpasses imaginary lines and we do not know the exact source..it may be from Canada but perhaps it contracted BSE here! Let's work together on this and find a solution". But he didn't. He allowed the border to be slammed shut. He has cancelled summit meetings with our leaders for other "commitments" (I think a round of golf was involved in at least one of the multiple cancellations). Your government (stemming back as far back as Clinton, because the Presidency change does not affect ALL branches that dramtically) historically renegs on NAFTA agreements as Mute so eleoquently brought up as being some kinda of binded thing *cough*bullshit*cough*. Tarriffs on soft-lumber, over-fishing and fishing over boundries to name a couple. Your government backs out of a nuclear proliferation treaty with Russia...as if 12,000 nuclear warheads were not enough.

Your government even went so far as to threaten to put nuclear missile siloes all along the Canadian border to coerce our government in the 60's to scrap an long-range supersonic interceptor aircraft that technologically was extremely far more advanced than anything the Americans or Russians had and for the most part still. The fulfillment of that "US ultimatum" would have threatened over 90% of Canada's population by making it a potential victim of fallout if ever a nuclear attack on the US). Doesn't that sound like the actions of a loving neighbour, trading partner and best-friend? And you guys thing anti-American government sentiment is something new (keep in mind, I will not lumps American citizens in the like of their government...especially when the US is currently run by a boughten government).

And now there are the drugs. We have always been considered the "nice people". Someone needs help, send the Canadians. We need something they have, let's ask the Canadians. Your governments (past, present and most likely future) have committed more atrocities to mankind than any other country in recorded history; smart bombs not being so smart, forcing your ideals among foreign nations, occupying a country by claiming to liberate it. You ever though that some countries DO NOT WANT A DEMOCRACY? Many countries are still run by monarchies...some would consider them dictatorships. But guess what, the people love their leaders!! And when it is all said and done, we are all supposed to be thankful, grateful and some how do the whole gratification thing like we owe something.

But ya know what? I guess my objections to a self-imposed police offer juggernauting through the world doing whatever the fuck it wants simply because it can is in fact whining. Americans are whiners too. But their whines are muffled by having their heads up their asses, XANTHAN!!

Kyle...you live in a blissful little world because of your one exuding trait.

Understand that the US government (and no government is any different) does care about the interests of other nations insofar as those interests are aligned with its own. i.e. Canada's need to export mad cow disease into the US didn't jive with US interests. How can you even fault us for closing borders?

You mentioned the nuclear proliferation treaties with Russia. They tend to be full of loopholes. They just don't work. Anyway, it's not as if the Russians have ever lived up to a nuke treaty. They just go underground, and bump up production. Surely you don't expect the US government to put itself and Canada at the mercy of Russia in that way? Idealy it would be best for all nukes to disappear, but IMO mutually assured destruction is a good deterent, and the cat's out of the bag anyway. Nukes are everywhere.. I want our country to have more than the other guys, and you should too.

Dude, you hate US (gov't?) so much, you would probably believe anything about it. That's not to say that it doesn't do some pretty f'd up things, because it does, but this Arrow myth your referring to is laughable. Who would believe that we could make such a threat and even actually follow through with it because of a jet? You need to go back and research that topic some more. Members of Canadian government have said it didn't happen the way you said it did. Post some links if you find otherwise.

Try to think of America as a selfish big brother who gets away with murder, but would be there for you when it really counted (because you're attached to him at the hip). One other thing.. try to see NAFTA/FTAA for what it is.. a free pass for multinationals to do business without having to worry too much about the laws and regulations of a nation. That's great for businesses, but mostly bad for the people.

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[ 04-23-2021: Message edited by: Wintermute ]

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How can you even fault us for closing borders?

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I don't. Just for this long with no further incidents, evidence it originated in Canada or any indication there is a widespread problem. You guys got a BSE cow too, but of course because it was born in Canada... Well guess what, our infected was born in the US and brought here by a US rancher for his operations up here!

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You mentioned the nuclear proliferation treaties with Russia. They tend to be full of loopholes. They just don't work. Anyway, it's not as if the Russians have ever lived up to a nuke treaty.

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True. But they also never just backed out of one for absolutely no reason in the middle of "war". Doesn't look good and then Bush wonders why N. Korea was posturing like they were?

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I want our country to have more than the other guys, and you should too.

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Kinda like terminal velocity man. Just like you can only go so fast, there is only so much to destroy and there is only so much you can have destroyed before you are incapable of destroying any more. But I hear ya...I always like to be on the winning team too

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Dude, you hate US (gov't?) so much, you would probably believe anything about it.

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"Glad you made it out of Dallas alive Mr. President" -Lyndon Johnson

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Try to think of America as a selfish big brother who gets away with murder, but would be there for you when it really counted (because you're attached to him at the hip). One other thing.. try to see NAFTA/FTAA for what it is.. a free pass for multinationals to do business without having to worry too much about the laws and regulations of a nation. That's great for businesses, but mostly bad for the people.

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No shit eh. I can send up to $100 of stuff to the you before you pay duties, I can receive $20 worth from you before I pay duties...thanks to NAFTA. For some reason my ass feels a little sore. And I understand the joined at the hip part, but let's not candy coat things too much: right now your republican gov't does not care for Canada, it's policies or its government. It does however have a somewhat large eye up north in Alberta (Fort McMurray) where the oilsands are said to have more oil than Saudi and Iraq combined (there is some so deep they are working on technologies to extract more). That is one of the reasons I find it laughable that people say Alberta will be poor when the oil runs out. It won't run out...before that happens petroleum will be obsolete!

Like I said though 'Mute, I enjoy being in the US, I enjoy interacting with Americans. And don't get me wrong, I am a conservative (a moderate conservative mind you) but GWB is like a flaming hemorrhoid to me! The sad thing is, I don't know how much better Kerry will be. from what I have read on him, including his open letter to the (I can't remember who!) that had multiple people sign it (including your former President Mrs. Hillary Rodham Clinton) urging to keep the border closed...I also hope that he just does not pack up and pull out of Iraq if he wins. His predacessor made a mess that he simply cannot just wipe his hands clean of.

As for Bush... I can't defend much of anything his administration has done. Bush has had me considering voting democrat if only for 1.241 seconds, and that's something I never thought I'd say. I'm not that familiar with Canadian politics and systems, but I'm so fed up with government I almost want to move. Where's the best place to live up there in Canada?

[ 04-23-2021: Message edited by: Wintermute ]

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Alberta...it is the richest province in Canada and it is the most conservative too

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Canada's need to export mad cow disease into the US didn't jive with US interests. How can you even fault us for closing borders?

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you do know that the farm the mad cow came from here in alberta was owned by an american?

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but this Arrow myth your referring to is laughable. Who would believe that we could make such a threat and even actually follow through with it because of a jet?

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Why else would the Canadian Gov do what they did after spending millions on a aircraft that would kick the shit out of every other fighter in the world?

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Just make sure you pack your long underwear

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dont forget to bring your igloo kit as well

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Originally posted by Zippy:
Why else would the Canadian Gov do what they did after spending millions on a aircraft that would kick the shit out of every other fighter in the world?

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I doubt they kicked the shit out of specialized fighters of the time. They were interceptors. They were designed with speed and range in mind, not maneuverability. Anyway, the program was discontinued because the Soviet long range bombers were flying lower, faster, and capable of nuclear payloads. Ground to air guided missle systems were automated, and therefore able to locate and intercept incoming enemy aircraft with greater speed and efficiency. In the economic interests of Canada, the PM at the time discontinued the program because demand for interceptors like the Arrow had greatly decreased.

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The Avro Arrow was one of the world's finest aircrafts. It was scrapped on 'Black Friday', in 1959, by the Canadian government. All six aircrafts were cut up and destroyed. Part of the nose and the nose wheel assembly of one aircraft can be found in the Aviation Museum in Ottawa, Ontario. There have always been rumours that one of the Arrows survived the destruction.

The Avro Arrow, a sleek white jet interceptor developed in Malton, Ontario in the 1950s, could have been many things. It might have become the fastest plane in the world, our best defence against Soviet bombers, the catalyst to propel Canada to the forefront of the aviation industry

By 1959, five Arrows had been successfully test flown and the Iroquois-equipped prototype was being readied for its expected world speed record-breaking first flight. Avro had also managed to increase the range of the Arrow and reduce its cost to $7.8 million each by redesigning it to accommodate a US radar fire-control and missile system.

On February 20, 1959, Diefenbaker announced the immediate termination of the Arrow and Iroquois programmes and his intention to acquire nuclear warheads for the Bomarc-B and other weapons systems. Cancellation charges brought the total development costs of the Arrow programme to $470 million. In the furore that followed nationalists and the Opposition publlicly vilified the Diefenbaker government for its handling of the situation; privately Howe admitted that he would have done the same, only earlier. The CSC were disturbed by Diefenbaker's reliance on military rather than economic arguments to justify the cancellation - and that there was only a vague promise of replacement interceptors for the RCAF. Avro and Orenda, having done little to prepare for this contingency, were ruined. Top management personnel resigned, and over 14,000 highly skilled employees were fired on "Black Friday," largely leaving for jobs with British or US companies with a number making an invaluable contribution to the US space programme. In 1962, A.V. Roe Canada Limited was renamed Hawker-Siddeley Canada Limited: the Malton facilities were eventually bought by the US McDonnell-Douglas Corporation.

The Diefenbaker government was destined to fare little better than Avro had. As the CSC had feared, it was 1961 before the RCAF received sixty-six of the more up-to-date US-built CF-101B Voodoo, an interceptor which had previously been rejected by the RCAF evaluation team in 1953. The Diefenbaker government also infuriated the US administration by refusing to honour its commitment to accept nuclear warheads, thereby rendering the Bomarc-B, the Voodoo and hundreds of millions of dollars worth of other weapons systems virtually useless. In the 1962 election the hapless Diefenbaker government was reduced to a minority, and in 1963 it fell after a non-confidence vote condemning its ill-considered and badly-managed conduct of Canada's foreign policy and defence policy

The Arrow was a truly Canadian product by Canadians for Canada. The Arrow and the Iroquois programmes were a pinnacle of Canadian aviation achievement, the like of which we may never see again. It was a time when the eyes of the aviation world were on Canada.

The design, construction and development of these fine products was the Canadian equivalent to putting a man on the Moon.

The tragedy is that although we demonstrated success, we were never able to reap the benefits.

1950´s, we had the ultimate jet interceptor, the CF-105 Avro Arrow and the first North American jet transport, the C-102 Avro Jetliner, both of which were destroyed to avoid the memories of opportunities lost.

The CF-105 Arrow. Considered to be 20-30 years ahead of its time. First flown on 03/25/58, and all was lost on 02/20/59

web page

Way back in the hoary, pre-Cambrian era of the late 50's, we Canucks had ourselves a high-altitude interceptor, or at least prototypes. Built by Avro Canada, the CF-105 (Arrow) was, if history, available data and witness accounts are anything to go by, beating the wings off of anything else in the air. Unfortunately, that didn't sit well with some people (you can guess who they are), they preferred us Canadians to be handmaidens to their aims, not competitors, So, they pulled some levers to bring us presumptous cheeseheads back in line for daring to set foot in the playpen they figured they owned by divine right. Our Prime Minister, John Diefenbaker (play with his name any way you want, he let himself in for it) didn't have the stones to stand up for the technological achievements of his own country and not only cancelled the project but endeavored to destroy and wipe out every last trace of it that could be found - as if trying to erase the Arrow from history. Naturally, our government's attempt to 'erase' the information and artifacts of the Arrow's legacy only assured that the people who valued and remembered it would work all the more tenaciously to preserve these things - ain't human nature a funny thing?

HMMMMM.... i wonder who was going to sell us those nuclear missiles? come on kiddies im sure you know this one.

[ 10-25-2004: Message edited by: Zippy ]

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[ 10-25-2004: Message edited by: Wintermute ]

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Originally posted by Wintermute:
I didn't see the part where the big bad US came in and made the Arrow go away. I haven't seen anything to substantiate the claim made that we threatened to place nuclear silos along the border. As far as I can tell, Canada ultimately has its own government to blame for what happened to the Arrow.

[ 10-25-2004: Message edited by: Wintermute ]

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dude, all prototypes, blueprints, parts....EVERYTHING were destroyed. That does not suggest funding cuts. It screams politics! And if there was no foreign influence behind it, why would we blatantly turn a blind eye and not only walk away from futuristic aeronautical technology, but completely destroy it? Think about it...

needless to say, this topic is straying and is now a little dated

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Originally posted by Snag:
dude, all prototypes, blueprints, parts....EVERYTHING were destroyed. That does not suggest funding cuts. It screams politics! And if there was no foreign influence behind it, why would we blatantly turn a blind eye and not only walk away from futuristic aeronautical technology, but completely destroy it? Think about it...

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The choice made by Canadian government to discontinue the program was economically driven, and probably politically motivated to some extent. Certainly the Arrow's specialized design was becoming obsolete for it's original purpose, and so there were practical reasons beyond economics that factored into the decision.

Many of the engineers and scientists who developed the Arrow went to work for aircraft builders and R&D outfits in Canada and the US, so while the plans and prototypes themselves were destroyed so as not to allow this superior technology to fall into enemy hands, the knowledge was not lost and continued to benefit both the US and Canada's air defense for years to come.

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