I prefer to anologize them more to the likes of serial killers, lashing out against their own impotence and unimportance in the world. Where most would attempt to affect the world as positively as possible, they have lost their compass and instead try to affect the world as much as possible. And we all know that it is much easier to tear anything down that it is to build it up.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by FS:
Wow, I can't believe I'm agreeing with FS on this one

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1) Get rid of the unpatriotic patriot act and restore our civil liberties
2) Stop the ban on stem-cell research and provide federally funded research so we can move ahead instead of backwards in medical research
3) Keep the federal government out of state decisions like the ones for gay unions/marriage
4) Allow women to make their own decisions regarding reproductive decisions
5) Quit fucking with veteran benefits
6) Eliminate ridiculous overtime pay rules
7) Stop the social security reform bullshit
8) Shift the tax relief from the rich toward the poor so maybe all of us in the middle can benefit
9) Stop the FCC from being inconsistent as to who can have the freedom of speech and who cannot and enough with the censorship bullshit

Since this republican administration has been in office we have gone backwards half a decade or more…

I shouldn't blame just George Bush and his far-far-far right 'jesus freak' run administration because many of the democrats in congress are just as bad.

That recent bill that will allow the FCC to fine broadcasters half a million dollars or more for each offense (and they decide not the Supreme Court) was supported by 99% of the republicans and 80% of the democrats in congress.

It saddens me because a third party will never get elected...

What shocks me is that 'most' of the Bush supporters only discuss the 'war on terrorism' (blah blah blah) and how great GWB is when it comes to this war and do not seem to care the least about the 9 items I listed above.

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2) I agree.

3) Gay unions never used to be allowed. Now that they're more flamboyant and people have tolerance everyone has a bleeding heart. It's not right [from a moral or religious point of view].

4) Since when is it the woman's decision to kill a baby and not the baby's decision to be born? Abortion is sickening. Don't ride unless you want to pay the consequences.

5) ->

6) Haven't read anything on that.

7) Whoever is in office is going to try to reform that.

8) It'll unfortuneately never happen. All of them are funded by rich people that influence those cuts. And so on.

1) With the patriot act we all have lost some. It's current.
2) No argument there.
3) I simply said leave the decision at the state level where it is not if it should be allowed or not.

GWB promised smaller government and even went as far as saying that the democrats want big goverment yet he wants to now control what the states were already doing.

4) That response hardly warrants a reply. So you are saying a man or many men should decide instead of the woman actually carrying the unborn child? Are you implying that the unborn baby should somehow decide. What Knock once for yes, twice for no? Once it's born it is too late to decide.

5) Not sure what -> means.

6) Ok

7) Yes that is a very good observation

8) So is that right?

9) You need to read up on that one.

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What bothers me is when people say that a baby is not alive until it is born...or a person for that matter. What pisses me off is I could get in more trouble for shooting a dog than a woman could for "erasing" the consequences of indescretion.

There should be specific guidelines that follow abortion and affordability, affects of lifestyle or even just the lack of desire to have kids should not be one of them.

Acid, as for the liberties you say you haven't lost. They only haven't appeared lost or infringed because you have not been subjected to their enforcement. Smoke a joint, be executed for facilitating terrorism. "But I grew it myself for personal use"...now you are a terrorist because of cultivation.

The Patriot Act 1 and Patriot Act II are interwoven with many policies and control methodologies . The war on drugs now crosses the war on terrorism. They now also correllate to your immigration, education and employment policies.

Posse comitatus is moving in. The US is turning more and more to a police state, and citizens are blindly giving them up for the sake of security. 5 years ago they would never have done that. I am more and more convinced every day and with everything I read as far as Bush, Powell, Rumsfeld and especially Cheney's involvements in previous political and monetary endeavours.

Cy, you know how I was bashing the US for allowing guns to be owned by every Tom, Dick and Cyborg...I am starting to agree with the assertion the citizens of the US may require them to keep their gov't in line.

As far as traditional marriages are concerened, I believe that the feds DO have a vested interest. Why? Well, taxes first of all. You say that it should be left to the states....well, what if the feds give tax incentives to "fruit bearing" relationships? Why should the states now dictate federal policy and tax assesment, procurement and re-distribution?

I have spoken with two women that have had abortions in the past. I still remember the haunted look in their eyes. Believe me, they know what they did. They told me that if they had to do it over again, knowing then what they do know, they'd have kept the babies.

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

What about an unwanted child? Should they be raised by abusive parents to grow up damaged?

What if the woman's life is in danger? Should she be forced to give birth even if it may kill her?

How can a man decide what is right for a woman? Let’s let women decide.

For Pete’s sake don't let the religious nuts decide for them.

Also I'm not saying that there should not be some rules and guidelines. I'm all for a time limit as far as when it's too late to have an abortion.

As far as what happens to the fetus itself; hell it's not like it lived outside the body for a year or two and started digging life and interacting with its family then suddenly they decided to kill it.

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Where are fellow Americans that don't agree with the setback in civil rights or censorship?

Where are my brothers that want progress in medical research?

Who here makes over $600 K or more per year or owns a large corporation and are benefiting from tax breaks for the wealthy?

Who is supporting the overtime pay rules?

Who thinks that our veterans should have fewer benefits? Are you the same people saying support our troops for the Iraq war?

Who are you?

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Where are fellow Americans that don't agree with the setback in civil rights or censorship?
-Here!

Where are my brothers that want progress in medical research?
-Here!

Who here makes over $600 K or more per year or owns a large corporation and are benefiting from tax breaks for the wealthy?
-Na

Who is supporting the overtime pay rules?
-Not i

Who thinks that our veterans should have fewer benefits? Are you the same people saying support our troops for the Iraq war?
-Nope

Who are you?
-I AM CANADIAN!

Cough Cough...
-I AM NORTHAMERICAN!!!

[ 03-21-2004: Message edited by: Zippy ]

[ 03-21-2004: Message edited by: Zippy ]

[ 03-21-2004: Message edited by: Zippy ]

[ 03-21-2004: Message edited by: Zippy ]

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

quote:

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I honestly do not care about the small stuff.

---

Of course you are entitled to your own opinions (as I am) however how can you say that my entire list of those 9 items is all small stuff?

Major medical research setbacks, loss of many civil rights, out of control censorship, unfair tax cuts, unfair overtime rules, social security reform affect us all.

You do know that George Bush is aware that most of the citizens (that support him) have the same attitude as you do, right?

So many citizens of the USA are so concerned about this war on terrorism they don't seem to see the whole picture. If 9-11 never happened the people would be judging George Bush and this administration on a whole list of issues including those 9 items.

Because of this war on terrorism they seem to block the other issues out? You are proof of that by your comments.

George Bush knows that the war on terrorism, the hype about WMDs in Iraq, would accomplish the very thing you are saying. Who cares about small things when terrorists are lurking?

By the way many of us question the fact that we decided to target Saddam Hussein/Iraq first knowing that Al Qaeda was responsible for 9-11 not Iraq.

It seems to me that the war in Iraq was used more to strengthen the 'we don't care about the small stuff' philosophy than it was to help stop terrorism attacks in our country. Apparently it worked.

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quote:

---

What about an unwanted child? Should they be raised by abusive parents to grow up damaged?

---

No, they should die..right?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Acid:
1) No, they should die..right?

2) Snag, going a little overboard concering the Patriot Acts. They don't really matter. As soon as they do infringe anyone's rights, a court will throw their "punishment" out of the window and amend the bill because it's unconstitutional/whatnot.

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1) No they should grow in an abusive environment hated by their parents so the cycle can continue.

Actually I'm saying if the mother knows she does not want it she and most likely would not raise it with love she should stop the process before it's ever born.

2) You're right the court will most likely throw their punishment right out the window and revoke the patriot act the very first time it's abused.

Then again it's already been abused...

[ 03-21-2004: Message edited by: Cacophonous ]

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Be careful what you put in that Google search.
The government may now spy on web surfing of innocent Americans, including terms entered into search engines, by merely telling a judge anywhere in the U.S. that the spying could lead to information that is "relevant" to an ongoing criminal investigation. The person spied on does not have to be the target of the investigation. This application must be granted and the government is not obligated to report to the court or tell the person spied upon what it has done.

Abuse?
http://www.centralmaine.com/view/editorials/030917edit_pat.shtml
http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1506851&nav=168XIrLW
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2003/09/14/national1259EDT0480.DTL&type=printable

Some learned that lesson too well.

A North Carolina county prosecutor used the law to charge a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab of manufacturing chemical weapons. The accused could get 12 years to life behind bars. The normal sentence for the crime is about six months.

A California man wounded as a pipe bomb exploded in his lap while he sat in his car faces charges of "terrorism using a weapon of mass destruction."

Our government now has more power than ever before to peer into our personal lives through credit and bank records, e-mail, even the library books we check out. If we do not guard our privacy and our freedoms, we risk helping the terrorists destroy what makes our nation great.

Our founders built a system of checks and balances into our government to make sure that people controlled the government, not the other way around.

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Dick: I want oil dammit.
George: Me too!!!
Dumb Bitch (Rice): Well what can we do?
Rumsfeld: We need control!
George: How do we get it without public uprise?
Rumsfeld: Scare the people, make them willing to make sacrifices for safety.
Dumb Bitch (Rice): So how do we do that?
Powell: Bomb New York!

Seems like something possible. Conspiracy theory at best. Ties to the Illuminati, the Rockafellers and debutantes all the way back through history to England.

quote:

---

Dick: I want oil dammit.
George: Me too!!!
Dumb Bitch (Rice): Well what can we do?
Rumsfeld: We need control!
George: How do we get it without public uprise?
Rumsfeld: Scare the people, make them willing to make sacrifices for safety.
Dumb Bitch (Rice): So how do we do that?
Powell: Bomb New York!

---

..that's fucking retarded. Have anything more ignorant to put?

Cac- None of them have been sentenced yet. The ones that were caught legally will be given the sentences they deserve, but the others will get away because they will challenege the act. Stop over-dramatizing it. Unless you're doing something illegal like that, what do you have to worry about?

Acid, based on what I wrote about families in government keep in mind there are endless debutantes there to succeed the next. The games is the same yet the players change.

I only talk of this to get you thinking. You do think right? Or is just anything you do not have evidence to disprove retarded? Or is it just retarded cause you can't fathom it? Now the REAL mind fuck...what if, just WHAT IF, your government was actually headed by something larger than what you perceive as the Oval Office. Can you think that far out of your ass for one second Acid and just try to fathom what that could mean?

But alas...you have chosen to take the blue pill

When your son is drafted to fight this noble terrorism cause, I think your tune will change.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Acid:
Who would want their child going in harms way?

---

No one.

However the politicians that make such decisions aren't deciding to put their children into harm's way. They are deciding to put others' children into harm's way.

When you voluntarily enlist going to war cannot be out of the question. However it is quite different when the draft is instituted.

Very few politicians, if any, have children in the military and those that do, tend to conveniently get assignments that keep them out of harm's way.

quote:

---

Organically posted by MrsCyborg:

Very few politicians, if any, have children in the military and those that do, tend to conveniently get assignments that keep them out of harm's way.

---

I guess that makes them good parents, eh?

quote:

---

The way I see it is you either let a bully have his way with you or you beat him down until he is broken. Terrorists are bullies and if you do not destroy them they will defeat you as we saw in Spain. I see a valuable lesson in that...

---

Why is it when you say something "republican" in nature people throw all kinds of shit at you?

What about health care???

What about gay folks???

What about the poor endangered blue headed penis that BIG business is hurting with polution???

Blah Blah Blah

I guess I hijacked your thread.

If you want to, go ahead and answer individually why my 9 items listed are not important to us citizens? I won't attack you for your thoughts and I'm pleased to see that nobody is attacking me for mine.

The last thing I want to do is alienate you guys because we are pretty much all friends.

I guess I should have known better in the first place discussing something as personal as politics.

[ 03-22-2004: Message edited by: Cacophonous ]

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Nope, it is a great way to find cells within the United States. A small sacrifice to make but the monitors must be monitored.

2) Stop the ban on stem-cell research and provide federally funded research so we can move ahead instead of backwards in medical research

Agreed, but maybe not federally funded.

3) Keep the federal government out of state decisions like the ones for gay unions/marriage

Agreed BUT I don't follow this issue. I think if there is a place where same sex couples like to hangout and do whatever they do… great.

4) Allow women to make their own decisions regarding reproductive decisions

I am not religious but my gut tells me that killing a baby at any point is wrong. Human life needs our protection until it is old enough defend itself. There is nothing nastier than a woman who keeps getting knocked up without regard for life. I also get a bad feeling when I see these militant feminists getting involved.

5) Quit fucking with veteran benefits

I haven't heard about this or haven't been paying attention to this. Seems like a Kerry campaign slogan, educate me please?

6) Eliminate ridiculous overtime pay rules

I own my own business. If you work for someone you are under a contract. That person should decide on what to put in the contract. If you want blow jobs at lunch and she agrees in writing,,, that is what you get. I would like the government to stay out of small - medium sized business to allow them to grow.

7) Stop the social security reform bullshit

Very complicated. I wish I was given the choice to opt in/out when I started working, I would have opted out. Now I have paid in and feel I am owed.

8) Shift the tax relief from the rich toward the poor so maybe all of us in the middle can benefit

I would like no taxes on all income up to 75,000 can you make this happen?

9) Stop the FCC from being inconsistent as to who can have the freedom of speech and who cannot and enough with the censorship bullshit

When I hear morons talking trash while my kid is eating his happy meal it bothers me, but it was my choice to not use the drive thru.

...or something like that. I woulda placed that in quotes, but I probably messed that quote up too bad, and can't remember the originator anyway

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quote:

---

Originally posted by FS:
Wow, I can't believe I'm agreeing with FS on this one

---

- Republicans really need to be more honest and teach people how the world runs.

- Democrats need to be more honest and stop using civil rights and “the rich” further there political goals.

Both parties are failing in my book. I mean come on; the Democrats are holding their convention in Boston??? Why would Kerry want to be labeled a “liberal from Boston”?

Why would the republicans hold their convention in New York and be accused by the media of using September 11th to win the election?

Makes

No

Sense

AND I do not really read the news other than a glance at the paper Ellen brings home and DO NOT listen to talk radio anymore. I have grown up and do not need others to convince me of what is right and wrong.

I believe that all the lessons in life were taught during recess out in the school yard. Those who were observant only need to revisit those times to understand what is going on.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyborg6:
Donald Rumsfeld said in a recent CNN profile something like "I try to put myself in the other persons place to figure out what needs to be done next".

---

Oh

Cy it appears that we agree partially or in whole on 70% or more of the issues.

1 – I guess we disagree on that one.

One problem is it's too easy for local law enforcement to bypass the system using the Patriot Act to snag a few petty criminals like drug users along the way.

2 – I guess we agree that is should not be banned.

As far as federal funding goes why not if it's to benefit a huge percentage of mankind? I mean we fund ways to kill people why not to save lives and improve life?

3 – Agreed it should be left up to each state to decide.

I don't agree about gays hanging out having special locations to 'hang out'. Is it so they don't use the same drinking fountains and restaurants as the rest of us. That sounds like leper colonies to me.

(I know you were j/k anyway)

4 – I guess we disagree for the most part on abortion being a women's right to choose for herself depending on circumstances.

I'm not sure how you feel about rape & incest abortions. Also I doubt women can get knocked up by themselves.

5 – I guess you have not heard much about this one:

The House of Representatives have recently voted on the 2004 budget which will cut funding for veteran's health care and benefit programs by nearly $25 billion over the next ten years. It narrowly passed by a vote of 215 to 212, and came just a day after Congress passed a resolution to "Support Our Troops." How exactly does this vote support our troops?
http://www.inaflcio.com/documents/news030505unpatriotic.pdf

6 – I guess we agree on overtime pay rules.

Originally quoted by Cyborg:

quote:

---

I own my own business. If you work for someone you are under a contract. That person should decide on what to put in the contract. If you want blow jobs at lunch and she agrees in writing,,, that is what you get. I would like the government to stay out of small - medium sized business to allow them to grow.

---

7 – I guess we somewhat agree on SS reform. I could care less about myself since I have had a 401 K, 403 B & stock for years and so does my wife. However there are a ton of people from the old school that don’t have private retirement funds. Also as you put it: "Now I have paid in and feel I am owed".

SS Reform is much more involved than that one issue...

8 – I guess we both agree that the recent and proposed tax cuts don't help the low-middle income people but I don't agree with no taxes what-so-ever for incomes up to 75K as you put it. I guess you are far left on that one.

9 – So we agree on censorship for the most part.

Yes if I don't want to hear Howard Stern I can turn him off. What's ridiculous about it all is after 10:00 PM the radio stations are allowed to have much more open sex talk and that's when kids are listening more than 6:00 AM to 11:00 AM when Howard Stern is on.

Cy -Thanks for taking the time to comment back. I feel better that I'm not the only person here that cares about some of the small issues. I don't consider myself a conservative or liberal. I'm a middle person. No not from middle earth. =)

Acid - Thanks for the compliments about the majority of my comments being logical. At least on the issues that Cyborg and I agree upon. =)

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I guess what my point is, is if a few people pushing drugs get nabbed along the way, who really cares. I’m sure for those who hunt and kill terrorists they do not waste there time when they make a mistake and do not prosecute. At least they better or they will lose their hunting permit. The right to snoop needs to be closely monitored is there someone monitoring the monitors?

As far as federal funding goes why not if it's to benefit a huge percentage of mankind? I mean we fund ways to kill people why not to save lives and improve life?

That is a great point, thanks for that Mike; I now see the logic in it and agree.

I don't agree about gays hanging out having special locations to 'hang out'. Is it so they don't use the same drinking fountains and restaurants as the rest of us. That sounds like leper colonies to me.

LOL it was a joke but we also have to be sensitive to religious folks and republicans who are now also being forced to do their business in private because of a hostile environment. You do not want the republicans to go any deeper under ground; it would not be good for them or for us surface dwellers.

Note: I was thinking of an elevator design today that goes horizontal AND vertical to shuttle chief executives out of danger…hehe

(I know you were j/k anyway)

Yes indeed! 

I'm not sure how you feel about rape & incest abortions. Also I doubt women can get knocked up by themselves.

Rape and incest abortions are even more tragic and the life that is guarded and not aborted should be allowed to grow big and strong/join the black ops/and kill those who threaten the lives of others for kicks.

The House of Representatives have recently voted on the 2004 budget which will cut funding for veteran's health care and benefit programs by nearly $25 billion over the next ten years. It narrowly passed by a vote of 215 to 212, and came just a day after Congress passed a resolution to "Support Our Troops." How exactly does this vote support our troops? http://www.inaflcio.com/documents/news030505unpatriotic.pdf

On the surface that sounds evil BUT I would need to read more on that if I have the time, thanks.

6 – I guess we agree on overtime pay rules.

It is strange how when you work hard to get something and finally start earning a few dollars the “legal mafia” we call the IRS is at your door wanting it. It makes you become want to guard your pennies and it really sucks. Small to large mom and pops need a serious boost.

SS Reform is much more involved than that one issue...

Agreed

8 – I guess we both agree that the recent and proposed tax cuts don't help the low-middle income people but I don't agree with no taxes what-so-ever for incomes up to 75K as you put it. I guess you are far left on that one.

I want to keep some of what I earn but would feel fine giving after the 75 mark. Talk about a economy booster BUT this can not happen unless government can control it’s corruption and waste.

Yes if I don't want to hear Howard Stern I can turn him off. What's ridiculous about it all is after 10:00 PM the radio stations are allowed to have much more open sex talk and that's when kids are listening more than 6:00 AM to 11:00 AM when Howard Stern is on.

I like Howard Stern BUT it is now a little too adult for me and my son to listen too in the car.

Cy -Thanks for taking the time to comment back. I feel better that I'm not the only person here that cares about some of the small issues. I don't consider myself a conservative or liberal. I'm a middle person. No not from middle earth. =)

Yep no problem, please do not ignore the serious threat or terrorism for “the issues” though it is a MAJOR issue. Because of Spain I bet the terrorists are thinking the can get Kerry in office with a few bomb blasts or worse. We live in tough times, it is no time to be bending over and taking it up the $#@!!!

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It's funny in our house I lean toward Ellen's views (for the most part) and Steph is fairly conservative. We try to debate a few issues now and then but it usually ends in an awkward silence. Heh. Sometimes I see her point but usually I already have my mind made up.

[ 03-23-2004: Message edited by: Cacophonous ]

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Lets see, which one is worse. Killing a child or rape. Tell me! Would you rather be raped or kill your child? Tell me!

YOU are pathetic. Some mother you'll be.

Edit for Cac- The only scenario I see abortion acceptable is when it's life-threatening to the birthing mother.