Lesson: If you want to change an election, kill people. They will get mad at the current administration and hire a communist.

Maybe it's time the US starts "changing elections" the old fashioned way.

We could lose yet another Ali which is not good.

I'll admit that this last minute change to elect a Socialist is a bit disturbing because if Al-Qaeda was truely responsible for Thursday's attacks, then they had influence in changing the government of an existing Western democracy.

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So, while Al-Qaeda established a nations government in Spain. . .they didn't do basically the same thing in the US. Face it, with out 9-11, Bush would have been deemed a dismal failure well before his term ended. Even now, 3 years later, he still stands a chance of getting re-elected based purely on his War on Terror, started, by 9-11. Same thing really, the only difference is perspective.

Ask yourselves, who would you have voted for if, 9-11 had happened in 2000 and not 2001? The war mongering republican, or the peace loving Democrat? Bush wouldn't have had to be appointed by a descision of the Supreme Court, he would have won in a land slide.

Al-Qaeda accomplished nothing in spain that wouldn't have happened anyway. They were already disatisfied with their current gov, the only difference is that it was a clear cut victory instead of a close race.

[ 03-16-2004: Message edited by: AcidWarp ]

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

Democrats to it a bit as well, but I've noticed that they tend to try and appeal more to your intelligence. It's an interesting study, it's almost as though watching the dicotomy of humans. Our intellects are always waring with our baser desires. Sometime desire wins, sometimes Intellect. Right now I desire ice cream. . I think I'll give in to that one.

[edit]

Oh, Cy, just caught your bit about the US changing elections. . . it happens all the time, the difference is, instead of blowing up a train station, it's usually backroom deals and the like. Just ask the recently suspended President of South Korea, I'm sure he had US backing for his presidency, afterall, he invited the US in when Kim Jong Il was foaming at the mouth a while back, despite the fact that his citizens didn't want you guys there.

[ 03-16-2004: Message edited by: AcidWarp ]

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

But I don't like repeating myself and I've said it all before.

We are not fighting an enemy that will respond to negotiations. We are not fighting an enemy that will respond to heavy casualties. We are not fighting an enemy that has any goals short of complete world domination.

To retain our way of life, we must fight to the bitter end -- theirs or ours.

Do unto others as they would have done unto you.

Beau seant.

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As for the Spanish pulling out of the IRAQ war because of an AL QAEDA attack; I thought the war on iraq was over WMD's, not 911? Hm? Or?
Or was it over wmd related activities? I can't keep up any more, this thing is more confusing than Twin Peaks.

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You guys make it seem all terrorists have the same fucking goal; that global domination is something that the terrorists seek and truly view as attainable. Everyone knows there is only one true and rightful terrorist group that could accomplish that. For these terrorists already control the world. However, their reign on terror and supremecy is not mandated in the same fashion. Nor is it painted in the sane light. It is not out of the passion created from oppression. It is not created from the desire to be self governed. It is merely driven by the desire to profit. Profit at all costs. Profit by any means. It is the actions of a machine that can no longer be controlled by man himself, but moreso through the consequence of previous actions. Actions brought about without social consensus or public support, yet quickly bought through giving tax breaks to the rich and mind fucking the dumb. Shall I go on? I think we know who we are all talking about...and nobody here will ever see my point cause most are too be busy being mind fucked.

The fact is, there are dozens if not hundreds of different terrorist organizations with thousands of cells across the world. The do not all have the same MO. And I somehow don't think they have the intention of world domination (rather just trying trying to say "fuck off"). Yet they mysteriously get lumped into the same category...

Oh well...until some WMD are found, it still proves GWB is an idiot who lied to his people to justify war and rather than admit they fucked up his government is double-talking, back-pedalling on old issues and faltering on current ones. And the people still support him?! I am starting to wonder if Bush is a genius and his country is dumb.

quote:

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Originally posted by outrider:
blah, blah, blah, ,blahblah, blah, blah, blah

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++

~A

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Now, who wants to go get drunk? =D

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If you're going to that against Americans, maybe we should take the fact that your government agency, SIDA, pays a Palestinian propoganda group called NSU as indicitive of YOUR moral grounding.

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quote:

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To retain our way of life, we must fight to the bitter end -- theirs or ours

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All I'm going to say is this. Terrorists think in exactly those terms(at least, Bin Laden and his ilk). And the world is in the state that it is in, because of people who think in those terms.

That is all.

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

acidwarp. It doesn't matter. you can stick your head in the sand and paint a burqa on your butt. They'll still kill ya.

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Sorry.

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If following your electorates wishes is being spineless, then any country on this planet should be so fortunate. the sad thing is, they made a commitment a while back and now they are renegging. but regardless, it is their decision to make. they do not have the remnants of MAD warfare to rely on. They are a small country with a relatively small military. Their people never wanted to be there in the first place and then they were sent a message. The US cannot protect them anymore than they protected the WTC. So from their point of view who gives a fuck about a "coalition" when there is an invisible enemy willing to attack you just because of your military allegiances are and said allegiances cannot offer you protection, rather only make you a target?

Just offering another POV is all...

I heard the same on the news last night. People were clearly establishing a causal link between the two.

"Call back our troops. No more bombs" or something like that. That seriously sucks. That says "Okay, you win. The bomb trick worked."

Following that reasoning, ETA should go ahead and kill 300 or 400 in one blow in order to win the independence of the Basque region.

If anything, I'd keep my troops there for a few months as a way of saying "up yours fuckers!"

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They totally bought into the terrorist attack. The attack is a sad thing to see, but it's nothing comparable to 9/11. The U.S. didn't run away in fear of another attack, we attacked them. Terrorists are not an invisible army, they are just more widespread to fight and use any means necessary to give their pointless message.

There are much more effective ways to marginalize extremists. The easiest and most cost effective is to simply not deal with them at all, because in not dealing with them, you are refusing to acknowledge that they have any power. By trying to fight them, you legitimize their beliefs and preconceptions, and for every one you kill, 3 more take his/her place. They have power over you, because they are forcing you to react to them, they are dictating your actions, and your actions are feeding them more excuses and more recruits. It's an endless cycle. It started with the Crusades. . . and hasn't stopped.

By NOT acknowledging them, you break that cycle. You defuse their weapons by making peace with the very people that they try and recruit to fight you. All waging war in the Middle East does is polarize the entire region against you (and more besides). If you embrace them and help their societies to grow(you don't need to pump money, even moral support helps) you benefit as well. Building symbiotic relations with the middle east is hell of a lot more effective than fighting.

It's harder to be embrace someone different than you in friendship, than it is to hate them. Hating comes easy, so does being afraid. Hell, fear breeds hate. You know why Islamic Extremeists hate "the west"? Because they fear cultural genocide, the fear losing their heritage, and by advancing with force of arms and fighting to the death, you perpetuate that fear. They hate, because they are afraid. That's why the us or them mentality exists.

Every war in human history can ultimately be attributed to "Us or Them" mentality. A Serbian shot Archduke Ferdinand because of it. Hitler encited radical nationalistic fervor by instilling that belief in the German people. The Pope even used that as an excuse to call for the Crusades. Hell, Jesus Christ was crucified because he was against it. Just look at the Israelis and the Palenstinians, proof enough.

Ultimately, I guess it's really a cicuituous argument. We could spend hours debating the issue and solve nothing. *sigh* lol, I think that's why I like you WillyT, you challenge me. Heh, hell, I like you all in general, only with you guys could we have a vicious debate in one thread, and laugh and joke in another.

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

quote:

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The easiest and most cost effective is to simply not deal with them at all

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quote:

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Originally posted by AcidWarp:
Ultimately, I guess it's really a cicuituous argument. We could spend hours debating the issue and solve nothing.

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

quote:

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Originally posted by AcidWarp:
[QB]Willy, I resent that remark about burying my head in the sand. That's really arrogant on your part. I'm not burying my head in the sand.

...

The easiest and most cost effective is to simply not deal with them at all,

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So you're not turning around and ignoring them but instead just turning around and ignoring them?

[/quote]in not dealing with them, you are refusing to acknowledge that they have any power. By trying to fight them, you legitimize their beliefs and preconceptions, and for every one you kill, 3 more take his/her place. They have power over you, because they are forcing you to react to them, they are dictating your actions, and your actions are feeding them more excuses and more recruits. It's an endless cycle. It started with the Crusades. . . and hasn't stopped. [/quote]

wrong.
1. if they're all dead, cycle ends.
2. if we destablize the ruling families, the funding stops and the cycle ends.
3. Their beliefs are no more legitimate or illegitimate than anyone else's. Their violence in attempting to achieve dominance rather than in having a superior culture is unacceptable.
4. 3 more? where'd you get that number? until shown otherwise, I will assume you made it up.
5. Islamofascism didn't start with the crusades. Mohammed himself was a conqueror and brutal dictator. I don't know when the last you check the newspaper was, but the date is now something around 1900 or 2000 or thereabouts, marking the end of the crusades right around 6 or 7 centuries ago. If they feel the need to retaliate against the actions of the kings of Europe by bombing my family in America, that is all the more reason for me to believe they are unfit for life.

quote:

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By NOT acknowledging them, you break that cycle. You defuse their weapons by making peace with the very people that they try and recruit to fight you.

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Try reading Osama Bin Laden's Declaration of War on America. You are simply wrong. They are unwilling to make peace. The only peace they will accept is the taliban enforced on a global scale.

quote:

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All waging war in the Middle East does is polarize the entire region against you (and more besides). If you embrace them and help their societies to grow(you don't need to pump money, even moral support helps) you benefit as well. Building symbiotic relations with the middle east is hell of a lot more effective than fighting.

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Like buying off the house of Saud? Like placing a puppet regime in Persia? Like training the people afghanistan how to defend themselves from the russians?

quote:

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It's harder to be embrace someone different than you in friendship, than it is to hate them. Hating comes easy, so does being afraid. Hell, fear breeds hate. You know why Islamic Extremeists hate "the west"? Because they fear cultural genocide, the fear losing their heritage, and by advancing with force of arms and fighting to the death, you perpetuate that fear. They hate, because they are afraid. That's why the us or them mentality exists.

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I know. Their cultural items of mysticism, nomadism, and subjugation of women and non-muslims prevents them from being a viable power in the modern world. So they want to destroy the modern world. I believe in their right to believe whatever they want. I have many american friends. One of my most intense relationships was with a girl who moved here from Iran. She didn't apoligize for any of those fuckers who preach hatred and death. She was proud to have gained her American citizenship because here, should was going to school. She'll probably have her bachelor's degree in electrical engineering within another 3 or 4 months. If her family hadn't come here, she would have been sold off into marriage, had no chance for a post secondary education, and lived the rest of her life as a lowly housewife. Over here, she is free. Freedom scares those who do not understand how to function in the modern world. They do not know how to deal with us without shattering their world views. I think it should rightfulyl be their problem and not ours. Wholesale murder is not acceptible. And yes, I'll say that in the same breath as I will say that killing terrorists is good for the world with a perfectly straight face.

quote:

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Every war in human history can ultimately be attributed to "Us or Them" mentality. A Serbian shot Archduke Ferdinand because of it. Hitler encited radical nationalistic fervor by instilling that belief in the German people. The Pope even used that as an excuse to call for the Crusades. Hell, Jesus Christ was crucified because he was against it. Just look at the Israelis and the Palenstinians, proof enough.

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wrong again. War is all about economics. Wars are fought when nations have something to gain. They have to gain viability on the world stage and we have to gain continued and unfettered survival. The crusades were fought because Europe was in a dark age and the Middle East was wealthy. WWII was fought becuase the Versailles treaty depressed the germans who had failed an attempt for wider control of europe a generation earlier. Korea and Vietnam were to protect Japan from the Russians. The War of 1812 was to plunder Canada. The civil war was to see whether the plantations or industry should control the federation (and thus set tariff on the other). Shall I continue?

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*sigh* lol, I think that's why I like you WillyT, you challenge me. Heh, hell, I like you all in general, only with you guys could we have a vicious debate in one thread, and laugh and joke in another.

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I don't hold personal grudges. (Usually, anyway. I can think of only two examples on these boards.)

I'm not trying to be particularly vicious or ruthless. Just accurate and honest. And I confident enough in my opinions that I'll subject them to the rigor of a debate to verify that they hold true. I would not trust anyone who doesn't.

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That being said. That does not mean that I'm against swift, brutal justice. Going into Afghanistan after 9-11 was the right thing to do IMO. But now the Taliban is making a comeback because everybody seems to have forgotten Afghanistan. Poor planning and sloppy execution. There was a real chance to turn Afghanistan into a strong country that is friends with "the west", but it fell apart because somebody thought that oil and money was more important that geopolitical stability.

That's the one thing that I didn't really get, Iraq as a toehold? That's just to appease the hardline right, much like the excuse of regime change is to court the fence-sitters (if I may borrow that phrase). The only interest any "western" nation has had in the Middle East, and Iraq specifically has always been oil. I highly doubt that this is about gaining a toe hold, I honestly think that your government was far more interested in oil, than in stabilizing the middle east. The best place to start stabilizing the middle east would be forcing the Israelis and the Palestinians go back to peace talks, and once and for ending that conflict. That would calm things down TREMENDOUSLY in the region.

quote:

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The War of 1812 was to plunder Canada

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Isn't that how you got your anthem?

I disagree about war being for economics at least, as the only reason. I will concede the point though, at least as far as saying that economics plays a part. I stand by my earlier statement of "Them or Us" though.

quote:

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I'm not trying to be particularly vicious or ruthless. Just accurate and honest. And I confident enough in my opinions that I'll subject them to the rigor of a debate to verify that they hold true. I would not trust anyone who doesn't.

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I know that you weren't trying to be viscious, or insulting to me I got a little carried away with that first statement. It happens in a vigorous debate. I don't usually carry grudges either.

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

quote:

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Originally posted by AcidWarp:
I think your missing my point here. You don't ignore the terrorist. You just make friends with the nations. That marginalizes the terrorist, he can't build a power base, if no one has a reason to join with him. By NOT acknowledging the terrorist, but by acknowledging the nations at large, the Terrorist has no more power.

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My point is that we have attempted to do that in Iran and Saudi Arabia and Iraq (and when I say Iraq, I'm not talking about the latest insurgence). In fact, there is no reason for any poverty in any Arab state because we not only by their oil but send MASSIVE amounts of support funds as well. The citizens of the nations we would need to court are subjects to their Imams and Ayatollahs and are so deeply taught to hate while fed a constant stream of misery in our name by their leaders that we cannot bargain while those leaders hold power.

We're at an interesting point with the Middle East. In another 25 to 50 years, they'll be running out of oil. That is all they have to hold attention now. When it is gone or even before then, when the demand for it slows or ceases as alternative technologies take over, they will no longer have influence over the world's politics. It is the exact opposite of the crusades going on now. Rather than plundering the Middle East for its wealth, the middle east is attempting seed the colonization of the rest of the world before its wealth is gone. We have oil in alaska and texas and we can still freely buy oil from the "friendly" states of the middle east and pump it out from under the oceans. The middle east is not vital to our strategic stores but it is a large enough field to warrant a strategic interest. Our goal is not plundering oil or creating vast quantities of cheap oil, but rather to remove control of a large block of resources to remain under the control of forces trying to bring about our fall. To that end, Iraq provided a good starting point because of the lack of support for its regime by its people. The real danger is from Saudi Arabia mainly and Syria and Iran after that. When I say Iraq was a foothold, I mean it in a sense that we will establish a presence there, hopefully create a viable form of self governance and spread the culture and ways of the west in the mideast. Ultimately, I suppose it is similar to what you suggested: winning over the people in the region. The problem, however, is how to access those people. I contend that our actions in Iraq will provide the means we need.

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Sorry, I'm not laughing at your argument. It's just that it's rare when I get to have a philosophical discusion. I'm quite pleased

quote:

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spread the culture and ways of the west in the mideast

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That bothers me, not so much at a visceral level, but a philosophical one. It begs the question: "Who are we to decided for them what their culture should be?". That idea virtually destroyed Native American culture, and we now know that the aboriginal cultures in North America were rich and diverse, and that Native Americans never were Savages. Their culture was highly sophisticated, until European's came.

Perhaps a better approach to the Middle East would be to act, not so much as guides, but as a pillar of support. If that makes any sense. We should show them the benefits of our collective western cultures, but we should not foist our cultures on them. Objectively educate, but allow them to decide for themselves what is best for them. We should note make them have to choose death or subversion to someone else's belief system. Let them form their own.

[ 03-17-2004: Message edited by: AcidWarp ]

[ 03-17-2004: Message edited by: AcidWarp ]

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

quote:

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That bothers me, not so much at a visceral level, but a philosophical one. It begs the question: "Who are we to decided for them what their culture should be?".

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by the time they crashed their planes, blew up that zodiac, ran the truck into our barracks, slit pearl's throat, and literally countless other similar acts, the decision had been made. If there is a mutual goal of diversity, sharing cultures is a great thing. Somehow, though, I get the feeling that not many within the islamist movement are all too interested in exchange.

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quote:

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Originally posted by WillyTrombone:
Somehow, though, I get the feeling that not many within the islamist movement are all too interested in exchange.

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I also heard they stab children.

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quote:

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Somehow, though, I get the feeling that not many within the islamist movement are all too interested in exchange.

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Also, you ever considered that maybe they feel the same way abd the US? After the US has put in puppet regimes, trained Aghanis to fight the Russians then turn their back on a tattered country so the Taliban can seize power etc...the US has quite well expressed that any interest they have had in the middle east is self-serving and the point where that interest stops, so to did the point in which previous administrations gave a shit.

then again, stripper...

did you offer to give her a better quote if she
DID let you touch her?

Either way, better get tested. I hear Islamic snatch fleas can jump up to 30 feet from their host...and being a stripper...

quote:

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Originally posted by WillyTrombone:
I get the feeling that not many within the islamist movement are all too interested in exchange.

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That's the fear mongering perpetrated by the few on the many. That's why objective education is the key. Teach them about ALL of their choices, and don't denigrate them. I think you'd be surprised at them, once they have the ability to make an educated decision.

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

how are you going to pass on the ability to make an educated decision?

Propaganda does not deceive people; it merely helps them to deceive themselves. There needs to be an underlying desire to believe. How do you plant that?

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quote:

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Propaganda does not deceive people; it merely helps them to deceive themselves.

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That is bullshit and you know it. The latest "war" on Iraq and American opinion of it is proof. It only got support from Congress and the populace after WMD became such a concern. 9 months later, Saddam was found. An individual man. Someone who for the most part can be disguised, hidden and scuttled around. WMD are a little more conspicuous, tougher to hide and sure as hell not mobile, yet after a year there is nothing found they did not already know. Inspectors were pulled out. And the Bush administration basically just said OOPS! Next you will tell me the Bush administration used no propaganda and that there was no deception.

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US Congress however was who mattered though. They needed to approve the push for war, so regardless whether Bush himself felt he was being truthful, there was an inherent deception in the propaganda he himself was presented and thus proxied.

Relaying a deception as truth only because you believe it to be true yourself does not negate the initial deception that existed in the first place.

quote:

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Originally posted by outrider:
blah, blah, blah, ,blahblah, blah, blah, blah

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cacophonous:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by outrider:
[qb]blah, blah, blah, ,blahblah, blah, blah, blah

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