This is the message that we MUST send to the world, unless you want to see this same sort of thing, and MUCH worse in the future. Kill our people and you will die. Hijack our planes, turn them into 500,000 pound cruise missiles, and you will die. We absolutely HAVE to impress upon terrorists everywhere that it is SUICIDE to attack the United States.

Take Bin Laden prisoner. Try him, convict him, and either imprison or execute him. There are MILLIONS of fanatics right behind him that will consider him an absolute HERO AND MARTYR for his cause and religion. They will pick up the torch right there, and continue to run with it forever. We absolutely MUST make any action of this kind WAY too expensive for them to even contemplate in the future. Otherwise we are sitting ducks. The people in Palestine should be scared to DEATH that some of their people attacked the US, not dancing for joy in front of our news cameras. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

There was a report on the radio this morning that certain ethnic students were celebrating on the USF campus here in Tampa yesterday. Doesn't this bother anyone in the slightest? YAAY. Let's have a barbecue and party down because some people from our homeland just killed thousands of innocents in the country where we were taken in, and allowed to go to school.

Another thing that scares me is people saying that they feel one way today, but tomorrow will probably feel differently. This atrocity, this absolute outright declaration of war should NEVER lose it's horror for the people of this country. EVER. Because if we allow it to fade, we will go back to doing things just like before, but only this time it will escalate. What was airliners yesterday could have been a nuke, one "liberated" in the fall of the USSR, and shipped here. We would be mourning Washington DC and New York City entire. Millions of lives are at stake. I don't want to see people try to deny that it could happen.

O

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quote:

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Originally posted by Oicu812:
The people in Palestine should be scared to DEATH that some of their people attacked the US, not dancing for joy in front of our news cameras. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

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What is wrong with this picture is the what the cameras are showing. You only see these few people in the camera view celebrating. I bet however that elsewhere people are carrying on with their lives, scared to speak up.

I have to admit though that what made me sick was that woman and her daughter, and her daughter saying that she hopes next they will attack Tel Aviv. Actually what made me sick the most was watching all those children celebrating. They have no idea what's going on, except that america is their enemy and now it has been attacked and it is a cause for celebration.

But next time the clip comes on, watch the sides of the screen for the rest of the people trying to get on with their daily life.

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O

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quote:

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There was a report on the radio this morning that certain ethnic students were celebrating on the USF campus here in Tampa yesterday. Doesn't this bother anyone in the slightest? YAAY. Let's have a barbecue and party down because some people from our homeland just killed thousands of innocents in the country where we were taken in, and allowed to go to school.

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Osama bin Laden told his top people 3 weeks ago that there was going to be "an unprecedented and devastating attck upon the United States soon". Now there is this.

I need no further proof. He threatened us with attack, the attack happened, his entire cabal, including the city he lives in gets FLATTENED. PERIOD.

We'll see how many MORE people want to attack the U.S. when it is certain death, not only for the terrorists themselves, but their entire organization, family, and city where they reside. Two or three examples NOW, will save thousands, or hundreds of thousands of lives in the future, including the lives of enemies. Because they will stop dying when they stop attacking.

O

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Oicu812 ]

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I was just telling my dad that I would bet on the americans rebuilding the WTC bigger and taller.

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

quote:

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Originally posted by Oicu812:
I need no further proof. He threatened us with attack, the attack happened, his entire cabal, including the city he lives in gets FLATTENED. PERIOD.

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So you want to be as bad as them and kill innocent people too.

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War is War. One cannot avoid people dying in a war. My point is: Strike fast. Strike hard. Make it so utterly horrible that they will NEVER attack us again. It will save lives in the long run.

Where has this modern "Gee, we can't fight them because some innocent people might die" mentality come from? People saying "Force never solves anything" and tripe like that. Throughout history, force is the ONLY thing that has solved issues. Period. If you don't believe it, just ask the Saxons and Celts in your area, if you can actually find any left.

O

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quote:

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War is War. One cannot avoid people dying in a war. My point is: Strike fast. Strike hard. Make it so utterly horrible that they will NEVER attack us again. It will save lives in the long run.

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This is not a time to be "politically correct".

The ONLY thing that terrorists understand is overwhelming physical force. Anything ELSE they will laugh at. And continue their campaign. Do you think it is over? That their statement has been made, and now they will sit back forever? My great grandfather thought that after WWI. My grandfathers (both of them) thought that after WWII. They are both still alive, and distraught that this could take place, after all that they fought for.

Just how many deaths IS justification for answering an attack? 10,000? 2,000,000? 1?

Tell me how many more of my countrymen should die. How many Trade Centers?

The point that I am trying to bring home to you is: They will NOT stop. Nip it in the bud NOW, before THEY have a chance to kill more innocents.

O

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Do you need several thousand of your neighbors, family and countrymen incinerated before you see things logically ?

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I just figured out that most of the bleeding hearted liberals have never SEEN a dismembered body before. Never had to help move corpses. ESPECIALLY when it is someone that you know. The hard, harsh reality is kind of like that old joke:

Definition of a Liberal: A Conservative who just hasn't been mugged yet.

O

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quote:

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What I can't get out of my mind is the fact that they used our own planes. I grew up in the Cold War, when we always pictured the threat as coming in the form of missiles -- sleek, efficient death machines, unmanned, hurtling over the North Pole from far away. But what came, instead, were our own commercial airliners, big friendly flying buses coming from Newark and Boston with innocent people on board. Red, white and blue planes, with ``United'' and ``American'' written on the side. The planes you've flown in and I've flown in. That's what they used to attack us. They were able to do it in part because our airport security is pathetic. But mainly they were able to do it because we are an open and trusting society that simply is not set up to cope with evil men, right here among us, who want to kill as many Americans as they can.

That's what's so hard to comprehend: They want us to die just for being Americans. They don't care which Americans die: military Americans, civilian Americans, young Americans, old Americans. Baby Americans. They don't care. To them, we're all mortal enemies. The truth is that most Americans, until Tuesday, were only dimly aware of their existence, and posed no threat to them. But that doesn't matter to them; all that matters is that we're Americans. And so they used our own planes to kill us.

And then their supporters celebrated in the streets.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jondster:
What is it you guys need ? A Quantas 747 piled into the tallest building in Sydney ???

Do you need several thousand of your neighbors, family and countrymen incinerated before you see things logically ?

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That is just not fair, and you know it. You're right, we're not looking from an American stance, we are looking from a world stance. And to say that America means nothing to us... I don't know how much Red has told you about his upbringing, but I'm sure that you at least knew that up till about 3 years ago both of us have attended International schools, set up with American curriculums, taught by American teachers, and populated by American students.

We hurt too. My cousin grew up in New York. She said that the Twin towers were the first truly big things she saw and that she used to think they were "Big Kings". We have several friends in the US at the moment, and one of them has a brother that might be called in if war descends, and who's father is the manager of an airport. A girl I used to know on Estro should've been in that tower today with her two friends to research something. Instead she had a cold, and now she is alive and they are gone.

To say our opinions are less because we are not american.... well.

BUT WE MUST LOOK AT THIS LOGICALLY AND HUMANELY.

I refuse to believe that killing a bunch of innocent people will prove the point. I think that attacking the city this attacker is taking refuge in is just attacking a scapegoat. In retaliation, you want someone to attack, and you want someone NOW. But for once, there is no other state to attack, because the offender is not another country, it is terrorists. But you want war. So you use the city/country they are hiding in as your scapegoat for someone to attack....

BUT THEY'RE NOT TO BLAME.

If you eliminate the whole group, that will make sense. BUt killing innocent people, no.

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Does anybody remember a scene from the movie "Apocalypse Now" where Colonel Kurtz explains the reason for his soldiers' "unorthodox" but extremely effective methods ??

That is the key to defeating this enemy.

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quote:

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It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face, and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies

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Is that the quote you meant Jondster?

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

And rebuild it bigger and better than before.

Here are some of my favorite examples.

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Hitler considered himself a Christian. Almost everyone will happily and passionately argue against that point. Why, then, do people suddenly feel so much hatred towards Muslims? Most of the Muslims around the world are probably opposed to bin Laden, as what he is doing is against every Islamic teaching. The suicide bombers believed that their deaths would give them instant access to Heaven, 72 virgins as wives, instant access to Heaven for exactly 70 of their family members and allows them to bypass Judgement - their sins will all be disregarded. I would love to have this passage pointed out to me in the Koran, and I'm sure millions of Muslims out there would like to see it, too.

Now, I'm not to sure about the validity of this, I'll try and find the earl again, but I think what Red is saying is that we should aid the Afghanistananians, so that they can over-throw the Taliban.

After letting my rage 'age' a week, I'm not so gung-ho on turning an entire country into sand. But I sure as hell want to get whoever did this, and whoever helped them do it. And to hit enough people/terrorists/terrorist networks that their ability to do this again is severely damaged. Severely.

Unfortunately the Jihad is a part of Islam. The most important part, at least as far is it pretains to the rest of the world is that Muslims believe that it is okay to use terrorism, to fight wars and kill innocent people that aren't Muslim. For one reason only (well at least according the majority of muslims at least)the 'Liberation' of Muslim lands. . . which is why there will NEVER be peace between the Palestinians and the Israelies. . . Palestine IS Israel. . . and vice versa. Granted there are extremists that take a different intereptation of Jihad. The extremists believe that they have to destroy all non-muslim nations and take them over.

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“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

“Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.”

So the Afghans as a population and the country itself isn't to blame. The US should give economic aide to the anti-Taliban groups (of which there are many) and perhaps even military aide to help them overthrow the current government. What would this do? It would help the Afghans get out of their current state and make something of themselves. Sure, this wouldn't put an end to terrorism for once and for all, but it would be a lot more effective than simply bombing the countryside in the hopes of hitting one of bin Laden's camps, because they sure as hell can't hit any structures. Because there aren't any. Bombing the hell out of Afghanistan will only bring more anti-US sentiment and lead to more attack.s

The United States have the moral high ground here. There's no denying they are the most powerful nation. They should lead by example. It seems to me like Bush is doing this to make a point. The point he is making is correct, but I think the way he is going about it is wrong.

At the moment the tragedy in America has captured (almost) everyone's hearts. If the US begins bombing then the sympathies will suddenly lie somewhere else - most likely towards the Afghan refugees suddenly pouring out of their own country.

This morning I was getting a bit worried about a world war because if there is, then Australia will most likely introduce conscription - and my brother and I would have to enlist. But I don't think there will be a world war. There aren't enough different sides and powers to have one, I don't think.

But hey, I'm just a talking head...

This is a statement made by the Society of Friends (Quakers).
A quaker friend of mine sent it to me. (sister in law)

FCNL SPECIAL STATEMENT (INFO LINE)
Friends Council on National Legislation USA

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE September 12, 2001

Statement on the Attacks on the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and Civilian Aircraft

Our hearts go out today to the victims of Tuesday's terrible attacks on the
World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the people in the four civilian aircraft. We call on Friends and others across the U.S. to offer prayers,
solace, friendship, and aid to the survivors, families, and friends of the
victims. We commend the heroic efforts of public safety personnel and the
many others who, at great personal risk, are working to rescue and treat
the victims of these tragedies.

We join with people across the country and around the world in expressing
the hope that those who planned and orchestrated these terrible acts will
soon be brought to justice under the rule of law.

We are concerned, however, about how the U.S. government responds now.

First, we are concerned that the U.S. not avenge these attacks with attacks
upon other innocent people who may happen to be of the same nationality,
faith, or ethnic group as the alleged perpetrators. This concern extends
to protecting the safety and rights of people here at home. Many in this
country of the Islamic faith or of Middle Eastern descent are worried that
they may now become the unwarranted focus of suspicion in their communities
or, worse, the subjects of unjust persecution.

Second, many in the administration and Congress have declared that a state
of war now exists. We are concerned that these public statements may be
stirring the popular will and expectation for war. We wonder: War against
whom? Cooler heads must prevail in the U.S. government during this time of
crisis. War will only compound the tremendous assault on humanity that has
already occurred. War is not the answer. The people who committed these
acts struck with hatred. They saw the people in the World Trade Center,
the Pentagon, and the aircraft as faceless enemies. They denied the
humanity of their victims. The U.S. must not commit the same sin by
compounding the hatred, violence, and injustice of these attacks with its
own acts of terror and war against another people, most of whom are
innocent of these crimes.

Finally, the people who planned these suicide attacks were able to draw
volunteers from a growing number of people around the world who harbor deep
resentment and anger toward the U.S. It is important that we in the U.S.
try to hear and understand the sources of this anger. If we in the U.S. do
not seek to understand and address the roots of this anger--poverty,
injustice, an hopelessness--then the violence may well continue, no matter
what the U.S. does to try to prevent it.

As members of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) we witness to that
spirit of love which takes away the occasion of war. Out of darkness and
tragedy, may God show us the path of true and lasting peace.

[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Wolfie ]

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Some songs on the list puzzle me.

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We are not at war with another country. We are at war with a faction that hides in the shadows of innocent countries. While the Taliban is currently the ruling power in Afghanistan, they are not the representation of the people.

Perl Harbor was one country attacking another. You CANNOT compare this attack to Perl Harbor in any way shape or form, neither can you compare it to any war in the history of the world.

This is a very different battle than any of use have seen before and cannot be won with a 'traditional' response.

The simple fact is that the vast majority of the people in the so-called 'guilty' countries are NOT supportive of these attacks and the groups responsible. The ONLY way to deal with this is to surgically remove those involved.

This will take many, many years, during which we will undoubtably be subject to further terrorist attacks, but wiping Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq or the entire middle east off the map WILL NOT STOP THESE ATTACKS.

If you have any doubt in your mind about what I am saying, please just answer me this one question: What is the purpose of our retaliation?

If you want retaliation for the purpose of revenge, then yes, let's nuke them all to hell. The families of the terrorists, their children, their neighbours, their relatives, their co-workers, their countrymen will die. If this is what you consider an adequate solution to this problem, then may God have mercy on your soul.

If you want retaliation in order to PREVENT future attacks and to restore the confidence and feeling of safety we have in this great country, wiping out the middle east will NOT achieve this goal.

There are millions upon millions of middle eastern peoples living in good ol' America right now. The vast majority of these citizens are good people, people who we are LUCKY to have as our friends and neighbors, but there are also enemies of democracy living among us. What do you think the destruction of their homelands will do to these enemies? Do you honestly think they'll lay down and say "forget it, we've lost?"

You're talking about taking away everything from these people. What happens to men who have nothing to lose? Think about it.

And while you're at it, think about those Middle Easterners in our country who are not our enemy. Do you think they would shrug their shoulders and thank us for killing their countrymen? For Bombing their fellow citizens into oblivion? Or perhaps they might be tempted to begin to follow those enemies of the world that they previously wanted nothing to do with.

As long as these terrorists are alive throughout the world, we will not be safe. Destroying their homeland will simply make them more dangerous, and the problem worse. Is this really what you want?

Really?

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